Dealing with ad hoc issues when you have a discipline arrangement based on set rules

[Naomi]

Looking to get some thoughts / hear others' experiences about an issue I've had a couple of times recently in my disciplinary arrangement. As some of you know, I have a discipline arrangement with a guy who is also a long-term friend. I am only spanked for discipline. For the most part I have decided on the things that I want to be accountable for and I feel I need to have consequences for and we've come up with a set of rules for me around that. Importantly for me, I have always been the driver of the types of behaviours, habits etc I am punished for. My ER has been great with that - he's helped me develop the rules and has insisted on a couple of extra things relating to me being honest with him, showing him respect within our arrangement etc. Normally there it is pretty clear where I've messed up / broken my rules and I accept that it's for him to decide whether I need to be punished and how to punish me (within the parameters we have agreed).

 

But a few times a situation has cropped up where I have done something he doesn't like which isn't connected to my rules and he has wanted to spank me for it. One example happened recently where I went as his plus 1 for a wedding of one of his colleagues. He felt that I drank way too much and I behaved in a way that was rude to his colleagues and embarrassing for him. He was really annoyed with me and thought I deserved to be spanked. I had gotten pretty tipsy and I probably was a bit obnoxious but those aren't actually behaviours included in my rules. We ended up having a big argument at the end of the evening when he told me he was going to punish me - he wanted to spank me that night at the hotel we were both staying at. That didn't happen and we agreed to chat again the next day. In the end I apologised the next day, I felt really guilty about it, I hold him I deserved to get punished and he strapped me the following afternoon when we both got back to London. But I found this episode tricky.

 

I think he feels that he is my disciplinarian, he rightly thinks that needs some authority and control for the arrangement to work. I know that he feels that it really undermines that if I can behave badly, have a shitty attitude etc and he can't spank me just because I didn't break one of the rules on the list. I have found these ad hoc issues hard because it feels like things move away from me having the initiative. I know that for this to work he obviously has to be able to make some decisions and I won't always like those. But it is really hard to figure out how we can/should handle things where I may be wrong, I may have behaved badly but that doesn't fall into things I've decided I need accountability for. I guess it's really a choice of having really rigid boundaries and deciding that I can only ever be spanked if what I have done breaks one of my rules or giving him more leeway to make those decisions.

 

I would be really interested to know whether you guys have experienced similar issues / how you handle this in your arrangements where you have particular rules - would be good to hear from ER and EE perspectives as I imagine they may be different.

Thanks!

 

Naomi

[Justin Jones]

Well my girlfriend would definitely get spanked for that but we have a different arrangement, so I guess that's up to the both of you to decide .  

[Spanknutt]

It think it depends upon what you mutually agree to. If I am working with someone who has a set of rules and she does something outside of those rules I don't feel that I can "force" a spanking on her because that would be non-consensual. If the offense is just something that irritates me, I don't feel I have the right to demand discipline. However, if it is something more serious, then we would probably both recognize that a spanking is deserved. In that case, I would suggest a spanking to see if she would agree. If she knows that her behavior was egregious and is sorry she did it, I don't think the case for a spanking would be too hard to make. 

Something like, "I want you to consider your behavior. Don't you agree that you should be spanked for that?" Then I would have consent.  Most of the people I have interacted with are pretty honest with themselves when it comes to things like that. They may not want the spanking, but they may know that it is deserved.

[MrBottoms]

I discipline Only when & after an "Understanding" of Behavior & the attached Consequences for any repeated behavior has been issued. As this particular public scene developed into an embarrassing situation, a spanking still would not have been the appropriate course of action. But if in fact you had been warned but did it anyway, then you would've been instructed to bend over for a "good talking to".   🤨

[Bert W]

For me, the bigger question is why a 32-yo woman would go to a formal occasion with a male friend and his business associates, drink heavily, and start acting out. I learned at an early age that when I went to events with my parents where their friends and business associates were present, I was to behave. Regardless of the spanking, what were you thinking acting out at what should have been a happy occasion, and what will you do differently next time?

[Spanknutt]

40 minutes ago, Bert W said:

For me, the bigger question is why a 32-yo woman would go to a formal occasion with a male friend and his business associates, drink heavily, and start acting out. I learned at an early age that when I went to events with my parents where their friends and business associates were present, I was to behave. Regardless of the spanking, what were you thinking acting out at what should have been a happy occasion, and what will you do differently next time?

That's a good point. Embarrassing one's partner in front of his colleagues is bad form. In that situation, perhaps the EE should be the one to request a spanking.

[cat627]

5 hours ago, Spanknutt said:

Something like, "I want you to consider your behavior. Don't you agree that you should be spanked for that?" Then I would have consent.  Most of the people I have interacted with are pretty honest with themselves when it comes to things like that. They may not want the spanking, but they may know that it is deserved.

This! Totally this!

I am one who often finds herself in random and unexpected predicaments...  Yes, I have some specific goals I'm working on with targeted rules.  But there have been several occasions where I've gotten myself into a situation where nothing had been clearly outlined in the rules for that specific thing.

But this right here is exactly how it's always gone down for me with disciplinarians who I have had a great deal of respect for.  We discuss it, just like this.

The whole reason why I seek out discipline is so that I have a chance to better myself and be accountable to someone, the one disciplining me is helping me...  It's not about force or coercion, and it's not about dancing around loopholes...   If I'm sincere in my efforts to better myself, I will be honest with my 'er when asked such questions. I have a conscience, I know if something I do was good or bad, if I didn't I wouldn't be asking for discipline. So when I'm asked a question, "Do you feel you should be punished for this?" I'd give an honest answer.

If it's not specifically mentioned in the rules, but we both know it was something improper or something I should not have done, a punishment makes sense. But yes, asking that question when it comes to such scenarios goes a LONG way...  

If I've known my 'er long enough I am typically okay with them adding things in. But for those more uncertain random moments, where it's a  unique situation,  such a question ensures a mutual understanding and agreement is reached, even if it had not been outlined clearly before.   

[nicoleS39]

I think this is a great topic...thank you for raising this. I think this might be very important for some...especially those in newer or shorter term relationships involving disciplinary spanking dynamics.

With us, we focus our agreed upon "dos and don'ts" on "principles more than specifics. Yes...there are some "specific" rules, but for the most part my behaviors and attitudes fall within general principles. For instance, "rude behavior" might encompass...cursing someone out, yelling, or "bad mouthing"....as an example. "Losing Self-control" might encompass "giving up on effort" or "running away from responsibility"....just some examples. So...broader principles and a trust I developed in submitting to my husband's wisdom and heart. Now, understand....we have been together in this for 15 years and counting as husband and wife. I have learned I can trust his judgement and heart regarding "whatever" I might do or not do and a justified spanking. However... I personally would not recommend this level of "leeway" with someone who has not had time to earn and demonstrate their character yet as a disciplinarian. In such cases...I dunno...but I think the spankee should have an "opt out" or "pause call" until the "spankabilty" of the uncovered behavior can be discussed. However...with us...if he decides I need my hide tanned for something maybe "newer" or in a "gray zone".... my bottom will be set on fire as he deems best.

[Explorify]

 My thought would be that to work such scenarios into your evolving rules.

 For example, you previously had a situation of blowing off an appointment, which was a new circumstance.  But it is part of the rules now.

 Similarly for other unanticipated misbehaviors.  As people have said, he doesn't have a blank check to spank you for all inappropriate behavior even if you agree it was inappropriate. (Of course, you could consent if you liked).  But in that circumstance you should write a new rule to govern the future.

  And, as Nicole suggests, as the relationship develops over time the new rule might be written more loosely to entrust him with more discretion.   -Ex.

[Longtimespanking]

I've always believed that when someone makes a disciplinary agreement, they are giving their disciplinarian a high level of authority to make decisions. 

I really like to have a written agreement stating what the rules are, and what the problem areas are which the person is asking to be punished for.  However, for very long term disciplinary relationships, then a verbal arrangement can work just as well as a written one does as long as both of us agree on the rules. 

But those specific things may not always be the only possible things that I would be punishing her over.  In the likely event that something else worth discussing and addressing takes place, then we will be doing exactly that based upon my discretion and the seriousness of her behavior or lack of same.  I would begin by discussing whether she thinks she ought to be punished over it, and based upon her responses then taking steps to address that punishment as needed.  If I thought it was a serious enough matter, there is no way that punishment could be avoided, but she would already be well aware of that fact. 

[danadares]

In a discipline relationship structured solely around a form of self-discipline, where the EE makes the rules, and the ER is only a service provider to apply punishment, I see nothing wrong with that. Bottom line, the one seeking discipline is getting what they were looking for. The one applying the punishment can find fulfillment in the act, and in helping out their partner, friend, or client, but they don't make it their business to judge.

The way I want to see discipline, the disciplinarian is not a passive provider. They are there to help the EE meet the goals of the EE, but they also bring their own judgment to the table. The EE wants to know that opinion because another point of view, one they respect, is part of the help and support they are looking for.

Much of discipline is common sense, and we don't feel the need to make an explicit rule for every conceivable possibility. Is getting drunk at a party, and acting rude, unacceptable behavior? Does it fall into the category of common sense? Maybe this is open for debate, and is a good example where a disciplinarian will make a judgment and demand that the issue be addressed. In the end, though, if there is a spanking or other punishment, it must be consensual. The degree of power and authority given to the ER will determine who makes the ultimate decision how this particular behavior is dealt with. To me, the ideal is to have a trusted and respected disciplinarian, and allow them to be the judge, jury, and executioner.

 

[Submissive Danny]

In our female led relationship I have rules I have to follow and will get spanked if I break the rules but my wife has also stipulated that if I do something that is wrong or annoys her she has the right to discipline me. She said in the beginning of our relationship it's impossible to put all rules on paper she she reserves the right to add a rule should something come up. She will always explain to me what I did wrong and make me understand why I need to be punished.

[Susanb196]

Our arrangement is different, we are in a DD relationship and my husband is my HOH. We have set and agreed rules and punishment guidelines. If I had behave the way you did in front of his colleagues I would have definitely got spanked in the hotel that night  

Your arrangement is different you want control which is totally understandable. In those situation all your spanker can do is tell you he wasn’t happy with your behaviour and he feels that you should be disciplined for it, if you are too tipsy to discuss it properly to prevent arguments all he just needs to say we will talk about it tomorrow and end the conversation . The good thing is, you did talk about it the next day, you realised you was out of order and accepted discipline, you should have also been disciplined for creating the argument  

 

susan xx 

[Bramblewine]

22 hours ago, Child of Light said:

It's a line you and your ER have to discuss. I personally would not give an ER I didn't know very long that much power over me in a control sense. It seems like a rule that could be added on is "being respectful" (as in both cases it seems like that rule would have been helpful).

But then there's a finer point: how do you define being respectful? What one person considers disrespect, another may not.

 

[Chawsee]

You've posted about similar issues in the past. If you and your ER have made an agreement that he is your disciplinarian, he shouldn't have to spell out in your rules, ahead of time, every possible infraction that you might think up. Obviously he can't predict what you'll do next. So just be grateful for someone in your life who is trying to guide you toward becoming a more respectable version of yourself.

In the Domestic Discipline world, the FIVE Ds are a common practice. Anything the spankee does that demonstrates Disobedience, Disrespect, Dishonesty, Defiance, or Danger earns a spanking.

Edited January 8 by Chawsee

[TroubleMaker76]

I have to agree with most everyone here that transgressions outside of your agreement need to be discussed with your ER. Being that you had been drinking waiting for you both to be sober is definitely the better arrangement. Safe, Sane and Sober are 3 things I feel need to be agreed upon for any interaction spanking or not. I personally want to be called out for behavior that may be inappropriate and spanked at the time of my infraction. This of course would need to be agreed upon with my ER before a situation arises that needed a spanking. I think I’d have a clause that addresses issues outside of the rules. 

[Overrmykneemiss]

A busy topic;

I normally do not say much here however my thinking has changed a bit as time and experience teaches us to be open minded and process thoughts slightly different.

We are who we are, good and not so good- we are a product of our upbringing, culture and education. In some parts of this world it would be considered ‘ normal’ to act out the way you did, - maybe- in my experience I prefer clear cut expectations, the need/ want of the ee is discussed thoroughly, when the boundaries are set, limits agreed too, at that point I may or may not have a suggestion or two. I explain to ( her) that I tend to care about her wellbeing and would hope that she acts in a safe manner - more specifically with driving and taking chances that could end up tragic. 
I suggest no texting and driving, speeding, drinking and driving etc… I empathize that this is her decision to make if she wishes. 
I can see where your Disciplinarian would be caught off guard by your actions however His expectations of your behavior were not discussed prior to the event I also may question why you never took the opportunity to ask Him what His expectations were of you?

I can assure that you asked what to wear? 
 

In this situation, as a Disciplinarian I would have  attempted ( very hard too ) take time to rationalize out My feelings of anger,disbelief, disappointment, embarrassment as well as the damage that was done to My career along with maybe my shortcomings as your Disciplinarian.

I might guess My level of trust would be substantially lower in the thought of asking you to do this type of arrangement again, bearing in mind that the situation was basically My fault had I taken steps to set better boundaries this would have not happened - at least to this extreme. There would definitely be a ‘talk’ when My mind cleared up and the anger was diminished. I believe that no spanking would have been done as far as I would impose, however the rules would be modified, trust would have to be reestablished if I were to ever consider this type of activity again. 
I would hope that you might reassess your need for accountability, possibly substance abuse issues and respect for your Er as well as the others involved. You may opt for a ‘clean the slate’ spanking for yourself as well as a stress relief for your Er as a form of apology.

Then try to remember that Er’s don’t mind spanking the ee, the ee has the choice to behave or accept the consequences- like it or not 🙂.

 

[danadares]

7 hours ago, Chawsee said:

You've posted about similar issues in the past. If you and your ER have made an agreement that he is your disciplinarian, he shouldn't have to spell out in your rules, ahead of time, every possible infraction that you might think up. Obviously he can't predict what you'll do next. So just be grateful for someone in your life who is trying to guide you toward becoming a more respectable version of yourself.

In the Domestic Discipline world, the FIVE Ds are a common practice. Anything the spankee does that demonstrates Disobedience, Disrespect, Dishonesty, Defiance, or Danger earns a spanking.

I like the Five Ds. Even though this site is about adults, discipline to me has always been modeled after what I knew growing up. At least in my house, there was no list of rules. You were taught right from wrong from an early age. It was rare to get in trouble and not know you had misbehaved before anyone else had to explain it to you. Obedience was expected. Respect was defined for you and not optional. There was no tolerance for lying. Defiance was a more blatant disobedience, and the safety of the young person was always a primary concern.

FWIW, when I think of adult discipline, obedience is not as obligatory unless the EE chooses that kind of an authority-based relationship. What respect looks like is subjective, and varies depending on those who must recognize it. Honesty is still a virtue, and it's hard to see a relationship surviving without it. Open resistance, under the conditions of consensual discipline, probably falls into the category of "bratting," and is a good way to earn spankings if that's the ambition. The most important issues to me are health and safety. Many such issues live under a big umbrella, and the choice between living a full life and playing it safe can sometimes be a tricky balance to maintain.

The primary objective of discipline to me is happiness. As fuzzy and fleeting as happiness can be, that still makes things more simple and straightforward. It's difficult to be happy if you're not healthy. Then, with risk/reward, we usually weigh the potential happiness as the profit gained. A good relationship makes us happy, so what steps do we take to secure that bond? Dishonesty, defiance, disrespect… if this makes us feel bad about ourselves, then what? If we fail to achieve our ambitions, isn't that really subverting our chance to be happy? It is in this light that I would judge someone getting drunk and acting rude at a party. If it makes an adult happy to have acted this way, then a spanking is not going to change anything. If they don't like how they acted, then a disciplinarian has a pathway to correcting the problem.

 

[frizzy91]

I had a somewhat similar arrangement in college. I got frustrated because she wanted to spank me for something I felt I didn’t deserve. And even looking back I still don’t feel I deserved it. I regret not following through with it and the spanking relationship ending. 
 

I think part of your rules should allow for him to punish you for situations like this, but that’s up to you.