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What if submissive partner disagrees with a punishment?


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What if, the submissive partner, feels he/she was unjustly disciplined by their dominant? I understand clear communication is important, but difference of opinion happens. Even thought the submissive partner *wants* and submits to their dominant, there must be situations where they disagree over if a spanking is deserved or not. So what happens then? Does the submissive partner eventually gives in because it is ultimately not their choice since they CHOSE to submit?

This can be a HoH/TiH relationship, or a mentor/mentee relationship etc. Assuming there is a dominant and a submissive partner in a relationship, what are your thoughts on the "disagreements over the justification behind a spanking/discipline/punishment?"

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You obviously cannot punish someone against their will. If you do, you could ruin the relationship and possibly leave yourself open to legal ramifications. Not good. 
If my partner/mentee and I  reach an impasse on punishment based on differences of opinion, I simply let it go and tell them (partner/mentee) that I’m disappointed in them and the reason why. 

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I think it differs depending on why there is a disagreement.  If it is "I didn't do it and I am an honest person who doesn't lie to get out of punishment" then the Dom should recognize that.  If it is "I don't want to be punished for that" then I think they should accept the punishment this time after respectfully stating their case, and then rework their contract.so that they don't get punished for things they don't think they should be punished for.  For instance, you could have it so you only get punished for breaking specifically spelled out rules, that you both agree on in advance.  

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49 minutes ago, a-mw-spanker1 said:

You obviously cannot punish someone against their will.

I understand that. But the consent is there. The submissive partner has CONSENTED to be spanked by their dominant. It's not about the consent, but more about the situation.

 

50 minutes ago, a-mw-spanker1 said:

If my partner/mentee and I  reach an impasse on punishment based on differences of opinion, I simply let it go and tell them (partner/mentee) that I’m disappointed in them and the reason why. 

This makes sense. But..wouldn't that take away the control/power from the dominant? Would that mean that the relationship is driven by the submissive at the base level?

 

Thanks for your inputs.

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As several others said, the proper reaction depends on the relationship between the individuals involved.  

Now, here is my answer based on my current situation.  I would discuss the situation with my er/disciplinarian.  We are honest with each other and I admit if I have done something improper.  He is fair, understanding, kind, and knowledgeable.   If we disagreed on a particular behavior or issue - which could happen - I would accept the discipline.  He would tell me why, and even if I didn't fully agree, I would accept it because I know he would not discipline me unless he believed it would be beneficial.  I would not want to do this with someone who would not believe me if I said I didn't do something.  Communication and trust are crucial. 

Also of note, I do not have a naturally submissive personality.   I do uphold my agreements.


 

 

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Both people need to be humble and gracious to each other.  I practice DD with my girlfriend and there are times we disagree over whether she should be spanked.  We have an understanding that the final decision is up to me.  She is humble and would accept my decision to spank her even if she disagrees.  I also have a responsibility as the dominant partner in the relationship to be gracious to her and consider her opinion earnestly.  I trust her and never assume she is trying to brat her way out of punishment she's earned. 

So I pretty much never go through with spanking her if she disagrees.  The rare times I spank her anyway, she trusts in me as the decision maker on such matters.  

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I have never, not once, had this problem. There is always a clear understanding of the rules in place from the outset. I always listen to the other side. And I always allow a "plea" opportunity which is to present all argument from the other side if any. If there is convincing evidence to the contrary then there is no such disciplinary action, unless of course I have the evidence to prove otherwise. It is also always quite clear that should there be even a smidgeon of deception, there is a Blistering to follow.   😛

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I think it depends on the relationship. My wife is our HOH and just the other day I didn’t agree with a spanking. She took that into consideration but at the end of the day she decided she was just in her assessment and I was spanked thoroughly. I didn’t like it. I didn’t really agree with it but i have given consent to her being in charge. Especially when it comes to discipline. After the spanking I was upset but glad to get it over with. I think it’s probably better for the submissive to let the dominant decide because if they don’t it’s definitely topping from the bottom. In my opinion. 

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every relationship is different but as a sub i would make my case but if I could not convince my dom then they should follow through with what they think is best or I would not see them as a dom but an equal.

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I have deep respect for my spankee's feelings about things and wouldn't punish him unless he agreed with me that it was fair. I know that I am sometimes wrong, and forcing my will because I happen to be the one in power is a sure way to make mistakes that I will regret and that my spankee would likely resent. So it's important to me that we're on the same page. That said, I opt for spankees who are honest and trustworthy with me. I wouldn't waste my time with one who was into bratting. But every disciplinarian/spankee dynamic is unique and this is merely my viewpoint, so, for what it's worth...

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Hi there boy,

There is really no general point of view possible here. Everything depends on the type of relationship you have and the agreements you made together as well. This is not about a TPE situation like some couples do have in the bdsm life style, and even then... What's most important if such a situation occurs is communication! The Dominant should not immediately start saying he/she is disappointed or so, but ask the submissive/spankee why they think there is no good reason for punishment. There can be several.

One rule is a holy rule and that is that you never ever, no matter what type of relationship withing the D/s scene you've got together, go against someones free will. Even when the roles are very clear. It's obvious there should be a good conversation when this happens, but again: a submissive is not a prisoner, a submissive is only human too, there can be so many reasons for her/him to disagree...

As a submissive you also can't force the Dominant to spank you if he/she doesn't agree.

It is about human relationships, let's never ever forget that. This is not about slavery, which is a crime by the way... :)

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I think a lot of interesting points have been made. But to my way of thinking, irregardless of the type of relationship, this is (and has to be) Adult Consensual spanking. The ee/submissive/whatever term is appropriate always has the ability to withdrawal their consent - at which point all play stops. Safe word or no specific safe word does not matter, if as an ee I said I withdrawal my consent it stops or we have much bigger problems very possibly involving higher authorities. Even with consent, and a written contract (that gives consent under defined circumstances), in some (probably many) states spanking (even between consenting adults) could/would be legally considered abusive. That alone says the ee has the ultimate power, namely not stopping on withdrawal of consent is a violation of the law. This site is about Adult Consensual Spanking and consent can always be withdrawn.

Dutchbrat's statement about never going against someone's free will brought this to the front of my mind. Everyone has the right to their opinion and approach, but the law is the law - irrespective of our opinion. We can of course always take appropriate, peaceful, action to get the law changed, but until it is....

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The spankee can certainly voice her feelings about the discipline.  If it is an event in discussion, then the spanker has to really consider the spankee's statement that the paricular event did not occur or that the spankee did not take part.  If it is a question of the spankee's partial culpability or the amount of punishment, the spanker certainly should consider the protest, but his decision must be respected.  As I have said many times, the spankee should always be allowed to walk away if she wants to.  Then it's up to the spanker as to whether he wants to continue the relationship.

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  • 4 months later...

A dispute should be decided in favor of the one who will suffer physically.  The ER loses nothing but misplaced pride.  The EE suffers a traumatic ordeal.  If there is a disagreement over the scope of an “agreement” there is no reason the benefit of the doubt should go to the party who suffers the least if it is resolved against him or her, and that is the ER.  

Being punished for something you believe is unfair can create an enormous amount of resentment and erode trust that the person doing the punishing cares about anything more than his or her “authority.”

I actually role played these unjust punishment scenarios with a pro to show her what I am talking about.  I “pushed back” verbally during the spanking to show her how I internalized what she was doing.  It was pointless because she was too blinded by her need for control and dominance to care about the impact of her decisions despite giving lip service to being a “fair” person. 

If you would submit to an unfair punishment that would leave you bruised, welted, and in tears, consider why you would let someone do that to you and how much you care for and value yourself as a human being. 

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I think it depends.  This opinion is from the perspective of a D/s relationship rather than a HoH.  This should be heavily negotiated and discussed ahead of time.  The EE should have a safe word and a history of using it.  The ER has just as much responsibility to be very clear about expectations and avoid acting in anger.  I have definitely been spanked where, at the beginning, I felt indignant and defensive, yet a few minutes in I was genuinely “singing a different toon”.  A spanking can break through defensiveness and force the EE to consider the bigger picture (at least that has been true for me).  The bigger picture may include reflections on the relationship agreement and your shared values (as opposed to some trivial disagreement).  I will definitely use my safe word though.  It is my responsibility to take care of my emotional safety.  It is my job to protect Her valuable property (me lol).  If I got all the way through a spanking, disagreed with it, and didn’t use my safe word, well a lot of that would be on me and I would own it.  Oh we’d be talking about it, but it wouldn’t be me blaming Her.

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I'm not 100% sure I know what I'd do in this situation.

I guess the first issue would be to find out if they're really disagreeing with the punishment/feel it's unjust. Or if it's just trying to talk themselves out of it. Not doing so if it's the latter could be undermine the relationship in the same way doing so could if it's the former, and could result in the submissive/mentee/spankee losing respect for your ability to discipline when they need it. In the same way if they really feel its unjust, then its just plain cruel and sadistic.

As is the case in all relationship situations, clear communication is key. Despite the nature of this lifestyle suggesting otherwise, it's still a two man job to maintain a relationship like this.  It's possible that feeling a punishment is unjust could be due to them not understanding what constitutes a broken rule. 

Ensuring that each rule is clearly explained and agreed by both parties before entering any dynamic is a good way to avoid it. And have regular discussions on what they are and whether any changes should be made. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/19/2020 at 7:25 AM, Redwombutt said:

I think disagreeing with a punishment with my wife is like kicking a can down the street, I'll have to pick it up sometime. Eventually I'll be punished,  but this time it'll be quite a bit harder and longer.

Yes, but I can't kick it very far! If I don't think I deserve a spanking I can say so, and we'll discuss it. If she misunderstood what happened, or I feel my actions were justified and can persuade her of that, then I won't get spanked. If I'm forced to agree that I shouldn't have done what I'm about to be spanked for, and should have known better, then she'll go ahead and spank me. And if it becomes clear that I argued just to avoid or delay a spanking, I'll get spanked for that, too!

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I agree that this is all dependent on the relationship and the personalities of the people involved. Having a mentor is not for me, but if I had an HoH I would assume that I would sometimes disagree with being on the receiving end. Someone having authority doesn't make them omniscient, they're going to make some mistakes. A big part of what attracts me to this kind of relationship is the prospect of not just being punished for acts but someone having the agency to manage moods and adjust attitudes. Well there's a lot of room for error when it comes to reading someone's mood as sullen, or defensive, or resentful. It just isn't realistic to expect someone to make the right call every time. And I also think that a lot of spanking is simply about her regularly asserting her authority so the actual event that kicks off the discipline is a bit less important for me, but definitely not irrelevant. Also spanking is intense, if I couldn't trust my partner's decisions or the way she handles her authority or how she would respond to a frank discussion about what had happened, then I've probably jumped into things too soon and too deep.

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I would speak my mind - because I know that my partner would listen and consider my feelings / thoughts. However, I would defer to his final determination (if I were unable to sway him). Sometimes I disagree for bratty reasons and other times it is because I honestly do not think I should be punished. I think a good Top would listen, but would still issuing an appropriate punishment. 

Of course, this is all within the strictures of a relationship that includes implied consent. If it is just a spanking meet-up, then my "no" effectively shuts down any potential spanking.

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8 hours ago, Lita said:

    That's not really submissive though. Anyway what I have to say shouldn't be considered.

What you have to say should be considered.  On here and in regards to spanking.  The fact is, even if your relation ship is cnc, what you're saying should be taken into consideration. I think that learning to voice a differing opinion or request is a special submissive skill.  If you really feel it is an unjust punishment and will harm your relationship, you do your Dom a disservice by not speaking up.  You take the full decision making power away from them.  Once you speak up, then They can decide if they still want to punish you for getting into that situation, or just because they feel like it.  

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All these comments go to the reasons an EE should feel obligated to submit to an unfair punishment.  None of them go to the legitimacy of an ER overriding a protest of unfairness.

I don’t care if the “arrangement” grants the ER the authority to do anything.  A protest of unfairness is the same as saying “I don’t want you to do this to me”.  If the ER does it anyway, he or she deserves neither the power nor the relationship.  An ethical and empathetic person would  consider that protest tantamount to a withdrawal of consent.  

Consent that is the product of duress or coercion is ineffective, and the idea that someone who is not a masochist and who will suffer greatly would give consent freely and without some underlying fear or pathology at play seems unlikely enough that consent should be presumed to have been withdrawn.  I have no quarrel with an EE who thinks he or she should submit, but for an ER to proceed in the face of disputed guilt is truly awful and repugnant., regardless of how impressed he or she is with whatever “evidence” of guilt he has amassed.

At least that is what I would argue to prosecute an assault and battery case In the face of a consent defense. 

 

 

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