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cat627

Cutting or more serious problems, could use some advice...

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Hello again ,

Well I think I'm certainly a bit more comfortable here, after receiving so much helpful advice and tips and talking to genuine caring people here that are all here to discuss , ask and share their thoughts regarding spanking and discipline, and other things related that is hard to really talk to anyone else outside of the forums.

I really need some advice, my husband and I are at a loss, and we aren't really sure how to handle this... Some people have a bit more straightforward needs when it comes to discipline... lateness, procrastination, texting while driving, keeping to a budget or bedtime, things like that... But I do know that there are some issues that are a bit more complicated and harder to handle, where help is really needed and somehow needs to be addressed.... where "Sticking to the simple stuff" may not be an option...

I don't know how many here know about things, like cutting, self mutilation or self harm.... Although I am asking for this I admit I'm not really even aware of what is usually going on.... whether with most people it's just habit, for fun or out of depression or frustration or something else...

I was under the impression that most disciplinarians do give severe consequences for things that might be dangerous to the person they are helping, things like texting while driving etc.... But how do you handle a more serious problem like cutting?

Actually in particular, how do you handle something like cutting when there is something a bit more serious and some major psychological problems involved, where seeing a "Professional" isn't quite an option but something must be done?

Wow I'm talking in circles and going on a rant here.... I'd be better off explaining my situation and what happened....

I'm not usually a "Cutter" ... not usually... However I've mentioned before I have gone through some extreme childhood trauma, and at times, flashbacks or memories can be triggered.... and it can be just as frightening and painful and feel as horrible as the time it happened... I feel certain things as if they were really happening, I cry and shake and I'm not fully with it... I don't know when it's going to happen, certain things just kind of trigger it...

Everything was going great with my husband and I today, I don't know what happened but his hand had brushed against me in a certain way, and while I never minded his touch before, somehow in the way it was done, I had felt that before, and before I know it, flashback/memory was triggered... and it only took a second for me to break down and cry, and start shaking and lose it.... My husband has no patience for me when this happens, gets frusterated , doesn't know how to deal with it or want to deal with it.. I know I need professional help and it isn't fair for him to deal with this. But for financial reasons it's just not possible...

Anyways, here is where the self-harm comes in, I'm not thinking clearly I'm not really with it... I do know at the time that I want to distract myself from the heavy emotions or rememberance of feelings or pain or sensations.. unconsciouly I might scratch an area over and over till it bleeds or even punch a certain part of me with my fist.... i am only half aware of whats going on....

Sometimes, like today, I am aware of whats going on and i'm trying my hardest to distract myself from the feelings, but I can't..... And this, like today is where I end up cutting.... It's been the only way I've known how to deal with it and get the pain to stop... finding something sharp and to feel the sting of it... something real that I am causing, is better than something not real, that I only remember being done to me, but feels real nonetheless.... it's a distraction, it forces my attention on a different kind of pain and it helps...

But it's a problem, this is the first time i've done it and this has happened in months.... but once every several months is still too much.... But in a disciplinary relationship, how is one to deal with this?

My husband was greatly upset and wanted to spank me for it... but at the same time, because of the underlying issues, neither of us knew if it would help or if it was deserved or something that should be punished for....

In the end we were both upset and just gave up on the issue not knowing how to handle it...

I would like to ask, what other mentors/disciplinarians/spankers would do in this situation.... Is this something that is beyond spanking, and should just be left to professionals, even if that isn't an available option, is it okay to just leave it alone..? Or is because of the self harm involved, and the seriousness of it, is this totally something discipline should be involved in?

I know this is a really complex issue, but really any thoughts or advice would be of a huge help... This has been a big problem with us and I just don't want things to get worse or out of hand....

Thanks~

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Guest Li'lMinx

PM'd you sweetie - as you asked for Tops responses and I'm an ee.

Love Minnie x

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This is a very serious issue and I have mentees who are also prone to this sort of thing. The thing is that discipline can not fix this problem. You honestly need to get into therapy to deal with all that has happened to you. Hon the truth is this stuff won't go away, you have to get some help to learn how to deal with it, put it in perspective and move forward with your life. If you don't these things will keep happening to you over and over. You need some help so you can begin to heal.

I'm not trying to sound harsh or mean, I do care and I am so sorry these things happened to you, nobody deserves this. Please get yourself into counseling and get the help you really need.

Hugs

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There is no easy answer. Corporal discipline can minimize the frequency, even if it's occasional, depending on how it is addressed. You mention that punishment was discussed, but with uncertainty as to whether it would help.

He should address the serious nature of this behavior.

How discipline is administered makes all the difference. The temptation will occasionally surface, but with proper

Swift & Just consequence , without question, then the behavior will assuredly halt. At least for the short term.

Is corporal discipline a permanent cure? Unlikely.

.

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This is a really difficult topic, & I have to agree with Ms Mary -- therapy doesn't have to be expensive, you might be able to find a LSW who charges between $80 -100, & insurance, if you have it, should cover most of that. This is way too complex of a topic for your husband to address with discipline, & I wouldn't just leave it alone either.

I've worked with the occasional person who has had issues with self harm, & the first thing I always have to ask is if seeking discipline is a form of that -- if I think it might be, then I can't deliever it in good conscience, since I don't want to perpetuate this. While I believe that discipline can be a wonderful method for dealing with guilt feelings, or releasing anxiety, I don't think it has any place in dealing with psychological issues like self harm.

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Cat yet once again I see that we are quite similar. My self harming involves cutting, burning, punching mirrors, and occassionally carving. I differ from most in the reason they self harm though. I do not do it in order to feel or to take my mind off the circumstances causing me to want to do it. For me, the sight of blood is a release for me. Everything is washed away so to speak.

I used to be a quite frequent cutter. I can read my life's story on my arms and legs. I had gone a year without doing anything until my ex fiance left. No one has ever been able to get me to put down a blade until a month ago. That man became my current mentor. I have burned one time since then. When it happens I am punished everytime. It's a horrible way to attempt to cope but I dont believe those that have never done it will ever fully understand why it's done.

If you want, you should know you can always PM me and I can let you know how I am trying to deal with it.

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Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts on this subject, it gives me some things to ponder.... I know this is a serious issue that requires therapy and just won't go away... I've been out of work for 4 years due to health problems, and my husband isn't making enough to support the both of us right now, we can't even afford to pay all the bills, unfortunately even a therapist was only $20 , it's still $20 more than what we have at the moment... especially without insurance...

I know eventually I will need to see someone, and will do so when I can... I guess I was just looking for some way to deal with or stop it in the meantime....

Again I appreciate all of your thoughts... I know this is a difficult subject but with all of the input here, I have some things to think about and ponder, and that is a huge help. And thank you Minnie and Poison for being willing to discuss this further with me

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Guest Li'lMinx

Yw, cat. :) I PM'd you, but there's one point from that PM i'd like to share here, if that's okay with you?

One other piece of great advice I was given from a Top of many years (and a counsellor) is that spanking for self harm reinforces the act. It's just another layer of pain. It becomes cyclic and voila! another form of self abuse is born.

If you spank for inflicting pain you are 'rewarding' the ee with more pain. Does that make sense?

Love Minnie x

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In regards to spanking as another form of self abuse.... I guess it's like what Ms. Aria was speaking of? I was wondering about that, and I think I understand... it's such a complex issue! I hadn't thought of it in that sense until you two mentioned it , and it's definitely something for me to ask myself... The ideas are hugely appreciated, and although this is a difficult issue and hard to give a straight answer I know, hearing these things help more than you know so thank you very much ... =)

Also, may I ask what "ee" is? ^_^; Thanks

And one other after thought I'd like to ask or suggest... ? (trying to avoid double posting) In regards to Spanking as another form of self-harm... if it is true ... while it sounds counterproductive... Is it possible that a spanking could be a "Safe" alternative? it doesn't address the underlying issue I understand, and more professional help is needed , but I'm wondering if outside help isn't readily available, or there is a moment where those feelings arise anyways and are unable to be controlled, perhaps while it still is enforcing pain as an outlet, it might work as a safe replacement until better help or options become available ?

If things like cutting are done out of frustration, depression, negative feelings or memories, or whatever reason... it's usually done alone, and can cause harm physically, perhaps a safe secure spanking, by someone who cares about you, might not only provide the outlet, but add the security and comfort at a moment when you're at the weakest?

Just an after thought after thinking about it awhile..

Then again... if my reasons for cutting are due to painful memories or flashbacks and I'm not fully with it... I guess the reason I haven't really tried it before and wanted to discuss it... I am wondering if a spanking could make those feelings worse.... I mean if i'm feeling that vulnerable..... cutting is something I have control over, however perhaps spanking when i'm the most vulnerable and frightened may do more harm then good..... ? Or it might help me snap out of it?

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Guest Li'lMinx

Oooops! sorry cat spankER, spankEE :D

Yes, it's a hugely complex issue and I agree with both Ms Mary and Ms Aria on this one.

Love Minnie x

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Guest cpgiver

//////////// In regards to Spanking as another form of self-harm... if it is true ... while it sounds counterproductive... Is it possible that a spanking could be a "Safe" alternative? it doesn't address the underlying issue I understand, and more professional help is needed , but I'm wondering if outside help isn't readily available, or there is a moment where those feelings arise anyways and are unable to be controlled, perhaps while it still is enforcing pain as an outlet, it might work as a safe replacement until better help or options become available ?

While not minimizing for a moment the serious nature of self-harm, I have read that (for some self-cutters) it is not so much the pain of cutting but the mentality of doing harm itself that appears to temporarily appease the compulsion.. If that is so for you, cat, then spanking may not prove to be the relief you seek. In a time of desperation, if spanking can temporarily arrest your need to cut, then do so.....whatever it takes to keep you safe until you can obtain the proper help. I commend you as having great courage to discuss this in the forum. Perhaps there are others here who suffer from similar issues, and if so - it would be both a valued asset for cat as well as a good therapeutic move to identfy with her in solidarity.

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Guest jamieuk74

I haven't posted on here for sometime but this is an issue that has affected me in the past and I do empathize with fellow self-harmers. I don't know how other people feel either from a male or female perspective but I know that when I self-harmed ( generally through scratching myself with fingernails or smashing my head against a wall ) it was as much about wanting to stop all the random horrific thoughts going through my head as it was about self-punishment.

Just a little background. When I was about 18 I went through 2 violent assaults, one of them sexual - I lost the confidence to go out and socialise for years and became morbidly obsessed with some horrific news stories around at the time ( mainly the war in bosnia and the cromwell street murders ). During those years I self-harmed a lot and genuinely thought I would land up killing myself. I also had work-related stress. Around about 6 years ago I realised that I had to get help and went into therapy. It hasn't always been easy but I am gradually learning to like myself again. I've still had bouts of self-harming - the last one was about a year ago but they are far less frequent. Part of what worked for me at least was understanding my triggers - being tired, not looking after myself and being around people who hurt me even when I didn't have to be. I have experimented with using self-spanking as an alternative to self-harming and it's worked to a certain extent but I still needed the counselling to understand why I was self-harming. I can't claim to be an expert in anything other than what I've gone through but I do wish anyone whose experiencing similar the very best but please please please do seek professional help .

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CP - Thanks for the input and I understand what you mean about the mentality.... Most the time I do it to distract myself from worse feelings, memories or other pain.... There have been times in the past when depressed that I would do things to harm myself out of disgust and dislike for who I was.... where it was about just causing harm...

Jamie, - Thank you very very much for sharing your story here... I can greatly relate as a lot of the flashbacks of mine that cause me to cut or inflict other harm are from traumatic moments in my life... Like you, there are certain "Triggers" that bring these things about... However I'm still learning about them and don't always see them coming.... sometimes it's specific things I can avoid, other times it feels like the way things all come to gether in a certain way, where someone is standing in relation to me, with a certain atmosphere or something said or a certain sound... that is totally unpredictable and it just happens so quickly...

And for scratching, or head banging... I thank you also for bringing that up... I was a little bit embarrassed to say so for myself at the time... I mentioned cutting, which is something I intentionally and consciously do... However when I'm having an "Episode" There are things I do that I'm not even aware of I'm so lost in the memories.... One of those things is scratching myself usually on my upper arms repeatedly over and over until they bleed, from a recent episode I have a very large scar on my arm from doing that....While I haven't banged my head on the wall, I have hit my head with my fists repeatedly as well during an episode, and I know it sounds very crazy , but I'm usually not aware of myself doing it as I'm not thinking straight...

I will share one thing though... On a doctor visit I had, he had seen the large wound on my arm that was inflicted, that it had been there a couple of visits and hadn't healed... (I usually scratch in the same places and it didn't have a chance to heal) He know I was having some problems with depression and had a lot going on, and somehow he had an idea of what was happening without my telling him.... we talked about it and he had let me know though that it's not as uncommon as we might think where people do this... especially when it comes to victims of abuse or violence who have those kinds of episodes... he also told me that it's just the way we deal with either memories of pain or feelings, or when the emotional overload becomes too hard to deal with... sometimes emotional pain is harder to bear than physical pain... and so this gets ones mind off of it sometimes...

Quick edit: ~~~ Also I am a bit late in saying this but I wanted to clarify... When I asked what other tops would do in this situation, I didn't mean that I only wanted tops to reply... I meant that to be for everyone... I'm bad with words sometimes and worded that a weird way... if you're a spankee who's been struggling with this and has found something to help, it was meant to include you too, all thoughts are welcome =) Sorry for being so late to clarify this

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Guest Li'lMinx

. Perhaps there are others here who suffer from similar issues, and if so - it would be both a valued asset for cat as well as a good therapeutic move to identfy with her in solidarity.

I believe there are cp, and I applaud Poison's and Jamie wholeheartedly for doing so, and also those who PM'd her in similar situations. It's a comfort to know you are not alone.

Generally:

I am not a self harmer, but went through extensive counselling whilst working for the British Red Cross on self harm. It became exceptionally useful whilst working with several girls here who do self harm. At the core, there is a self loathing, a feeling of unworthiness of the things others take for granted, like love and respect. Often they feel like nothing.

Here's a couple of tips that I was taught. It won't work for everyone, as there are some who like to see the blood, but it is a way to 'deal' without inflicting permanent mutilation, and even those that like to see the blood, given the chance to let this work WILL gain the release without the red stuff:

1) Take an ordinary rubber band and wear it like a bracelet constantly (choose one that's not gonna cut off your circulation!) and whenever 'those' feelings start to rise, or you cannot take the 'emptiness or numbness' any longer, snap it, over and over and over again until you get the release you need.

2) Ice works on the skin the same way a blade does but again, mortal risk and infection free. Draw a cube of ice repeatedly over and over the spot you would choose to hurt until you feel the release.

The release I am talking about is a chemical reaction from your brain that will 'accept' this as self harm. All I can say is try it and continue to try it.

A word of caution to all self harmers. If you have been told self harmers never try to kill themselves. I can tell you from personal experience that's simply untrue.

My daughter slashed her wrists aged 14 - her forearms looked like tiger stripes from wrist to elbow. She's tried to hide it under long sleeves. She had counselling. I was assured it was purely a 'release nothing to worry about' even though I knew this wasn't the case, I allowed myself to be convinced of that, for my own sanity.

A year later (after being told she was 'just a normal teenager' and having been dismissed from therapy 6 months earlier) she took a serious overdose. It was touch and go for a day or two. It was no 'cry for help' it was a SERIOUS attempt to die. She's now a 20 year old with the world at her feet.

However, that's not an 'awwwwwww' story. She lives with the insidiousness of depression and anxiety and the reasons she self harmed every day. It's the first thing she thinks of when she awakes, and the last thing she thinks about before she goes to sleep.

Self harm = people who don't like themselves, often through abuse or neglect .SO no self worth + self harm + depressive state = danger that requires professional assistance and an ER that is educated in how YOU react, not how your friend reacts, and will support YOU.

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On 9/23/2012 at 3:36 AM, cat627 said:

Hello again ,

Well I think I'm certainly a bit more comfortable here, after receiving so much helpful advice and tips and talking to genuine caring people here that are all here to discuss , ask and share their thoughts regarding spanking and discipline, and other things related that is hard to really talk to anyone else outside of the forums.

I really need some advice, my husband and I are at a loss, and we aren't really sure how to handle this... Some people have a bit more straightforward needs when it comes to discipline... lateness, procrastination, texting while driving, keeping to a budget or bedtime, things like that... But I do know that there are some issues that are a bit more complicated and harder to handle, where help is really needed and somehow needs to be addressed.... where "Sticking to the simple stuff" may not be an option...

I don't know how many here know about things, like cutting, self mutilation or self harm.... Although I am asking for this I admit I'm not really even aware of what is usually going on.... whether with most people it's just habit, for fun or out of depression or frustration or something else...

I was under the impression that most disciplinarians do give severe consequences for things that might be dangerous to the person they are helping, things like texting while driving etc.... But how do you handle a more serious problem like cutting?

Actually in particular, how do you handle something like cutting when there is something a bit more serious and some major psychological problems involved, where seeing a "Professional" isn't quite an option but something must be done?

Wow I'm talking in circles and going on a rant here.... I'd be better off explaining my situation and what happened....

I'm not usually a "Cutter" ... not usually... However I've mentioned before I have gone through some extreme childhood trauma, and at times, flashbacks or memories can be triggered.... and it can be just as frightening and painful and feel as horrible as the time it happened... I feel certain things as if they were really happening, I cry and shake and I'm not fully with it... I don't know when it's going to happen, certain things just kind of trigger it...

Everything was going great with my husband and I today, I don't know what happened but his hand had brushed against me in a certain way, and while I never minded his touch before, somehow in the way it was done, I had felt that before, and before I know it, flashback/memory was triggered... and it only took a second for me to break down and cry, and start shaking and lose it.... My husband has no patience for me when this happens, gets frusterated , doesn't know how to deal with it or want to deal with it.. I know I need professional help and it isn't fair for him to deal with this. But for financial reasons it's just not possible...

Anyways, here is where the self-harm comes in, I'm not thinking clearly I'm not really with it... I do know at the time that I want to distract myself from the heavy emotions or rememberance of feelings or pain or sensations.. unconsciouly I might scratch an area over and over till it bleeds or even punch a certain part of me with my fist.... i am only half aware of whats going on....

Sometimes, like today, I am aware of whats going on and i'm trying my hardest to distract myself from the feelings, but I can't..... And this, like today is where I end up cutting.... It's been the only way I've known how to deal with it and get the pain to stop... finding something sharp and to feel the sting of it... something real that I am causing, is better than something not real, that I only remember being done to me, but feels real nonetheless.... it's a distraction, it forces my attention on a different kind of pain and it helps...

But it's a problem, this is the first time i've done it and this has happened in months.... but once every several months is still too much.... But in a disciplinary relationship, how is one to deal with this?

My husband was greatly upset and wanted to spank me for it... but at the same time, because of the underlying issues, neither of us knew if it would help or if it was deserved or something that should be punished for....

In the end we were both upset and just gave up on the issue not knowing how to handle it...

I would like to ask, what other mentors/disciplinarians/spankers would do in this situation.... Is this something that is beyond spanking, and should just be left to professionals, even if that isn't an available option, is it okay to just leave it alone..? Or is because of the self harm involved, and the seriousness of it, is this totally something discipline should be involved in?

I know this is a really complex issue, but really any thoughts or advice would be of a huge help... This has been a big problem with us and I just don't want things to get worse or out of hand....

Thanks~

I can relate. What helps me is a combination of things. Spanking,punishment,being shown affection even when I first reject it. Self destructive behavior is usually feeling alone you need someone to tell you that you count. It's not just a cry for attention. My worst things I did to me were either never found out or found out later. For every time someone gets caught it has happened countless times before. 

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Personally, I would leave the treatment of cutting to a professional. Because this and other forms of self-mutilation are beyond my study of psychology, I would be concerned about doing more harm than good. 

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Hello and yes I have seen this before, a few times, some cut, some choke and others have a different outlet which is similar. A professional was involved in many but like you said  not all can afford that help. With these it involved a lot of open and honest conversations as we attempted to find what was the triggering factor each time. To which we found several, some where the time of day, past issues, present worries, and it can be very frustrating. The best thing is the bond you share between one another and when I mentor someone I go all out. I don't just visit monthly or weekly, I get involved. I've seen where some were driving an unsafe vehicle in which their mentor spanked them and told to fix it, just like this, it is not that easy and wont solve this issue of her being safe.  Most people are living paycheck to paycheck, paying for school, trying to work and pay their bills. Last week as a young lady I see often as she was backing her vehicle on the driveway I heard her brakes grinding, I stopped her and had her pull back in. We took my vehicle and knowing she knew very little about cars, whats the sound was and knew she couldn't afford it. I made an appointment the next day, had her brakes fixed and we discussed what to listen for next time. So our bond is more then an occasional meeting. But when we first met she was a cutter, and a few other self harming issues which he have discussed in length.   She is now more worried about hurting me with her actions/behaviors, and if she is texting and driving she gets spanked, a rule I will never over look. Her instructions on it, if the text is not for a life saving kidney, it can and better wait. But this is something she does and she admits to it ever time (plus she downloaded an app that warns when she does). Our greatness help with everything is the bond (not saying yours isn't great) as for the choking (I've seen her since Jan this year and for the last 2 months hasn't done any cutting) However the coking hasn't stopped but has slowed in frequency a great deal. But as individuals each has their own reasons and or what work s for them. But you are not alone in this, I have seen it a lot in some form or another, this best thing you have done is acknowledged it, opened the line of conversation, ask questions like you have here and have someone who cares working with you. As I tell anyone I see, I will help keep you safe as much as possible and I need her to help me keep her safe from herself. That she means so much to me it hurts me when she does any self hard, that like most I don't fully understand it but I am here, I care and I wouldn't let anyone else do this to her. We will discuss it and yes I do spank her for it, then hold her a bit tighter afterward letting her know my marks will fade but any marks she makes this way will not, that she is too lovely to wear these scares.

I am also not a writer, but I wanted to respond here as you are not alone in this and wish you the very best. 

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